James Mackay
An interview with the producer of Derek Jarman's films.
James Mackay is a film producer who has been instrumental in the UK world of avant-garde cinema over the last 50 years. He worked at London Film-Maker's Co-op and produced works by Derek Jarman such as Caravaggio, The Angelic Conversation and Blue. I had a brief conversation with Mackay at the launch of Digging in Another Time: Derek Jarman’s Modern Nature exhibition at the Hunterian Art Gallery.
Neil Scott: The 70s and 80s seem like a tremendously exciting period to be working. Where do you think that energy came from?
James Mackay: It came from the fact that London was full of squats and interesting spaces, and it didn't cost very much to live there. Artists could survive quite easily without having to rely on the art market to sell their work. There was also more state support for artists, which is lacking now. There was not vast amounts of money, but just enough money to go from project to project. I think there was also less bureaucracy.
The people who were in charge of state funding—the Arts Council, BFI, and whoever else—were listening more. So if you were looking for money, they would call you in to discuss the project. Now it's all blind. You have to send in a proposal for something that they're looking for. It's all the wrong way around. And, of course, the bureaucrats outnumber the artists. It's almost like it's a privilege to be asked to make work for them. Whereas, really, it's a privilege for them to be in a position to assist artists. I always felt privileged to work with Derek.
How did the commissioning process work in the 70s and 80s?
The first thing they would do is look at the work you'd already done, then talk to you about what you wanted to do, and, if that went well, you would propose the project. Now, it starts having to “answer the call” and provide something that fits into what they want. That is not how art is made.
Did you go to the Duggie Fields show at The Modern Institute? There’s this extraordinary archive of him going out clubbing and being a part of this scene…
Duggie worked very hard. There was a social aspect, but there always has been the art. There has always been a kind of social aspect to artists’ lives.
It was like his life and art were united—there was a total aesthetic vision—especially when it came to going out and dressing up. We don't seem to have that as much now.
No … of course, you have Grayson Perry, but I find that slightly risible.
Yes, that's not quite the same thing. Maybe because it's not collaborative; it’s not generative.
So you’re thinking of people like William Blake whose lives and artwork are totally intertwined? Yes, Derek's was. That's what he did. He lived for art. He started gardening when he was seven when somebody gave him a book called Beautiful Flowers and How to Grow Them.
His father and grandfather were filmmakers though he didn't pick up a camera until 1971. He started painting at a very early age and he was a very accomplished painter, even before he went to art school. So he was an artist all his life, that's what he did. He didn't really do anything else. And he was a very brilliant man. I mean, he got a double first from King's College. So he had an incredibly sophisticated mind. Although he didn't thrust it at you. He was very open. Easy to talk to. He didn't talk down to people.
I think of his garden as an accessible way into the Derek Jarman world. When you go back through the films, they are highbrow and engage with high culture. Wittgenstiein, calling works Et in Arcadia Est … doing a whole film in Latin.
That's true. The Sebastiane film is totally in Latin. Kind of pidgin Latin, but Latin. It's not like you need to be able to understand Latin to understand the film. When Derek was at the Slade, the painting school was a bit macho for him. He found refuge in the theatre design department, which was more gay-friendly. And you can look at his whole career as a theatre designer from Jazz Calendar, all the way through to The Devils for Ken Russell. Dungeness [Prospect Cottage] is a magnificent piece of set design.
Thank you, James.
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